0:00

Hello everyone. Welcome to the People

0:01

Solve Problems podcast. I'm your host

0:04

Jamie Flinchball and today we have a

0:05

special guest, Kathy Soulberg. Kathy,

0:07

good to see you.

0:08

Great to be here and it's been a gift to

0:11

find your work, your book, and this

0:13

podcast. Thanks for having me.

0:15

Yeah, glad to have you and I think we

0:16

have some some fun stuff to talk about.

0:19

Uh you run Community Unity Consulting.

0:22

Uh you have uh a new book reweaving what

0:25

matters uh which we'll get into the the

0:28

themes of spent 25 years helping leaders

0:31

across business, government, nonprofits

0:34

uh see what's really happening before

0:36

they try to fix it, which will be a big

0:38

part of our conversation. And that's

0:40

really developed into a two-phrase

0:42

practice of unweaving and reweaving. Um

0:46

you know, which is at the loom where

0:48

you're also a a weaver. um where you get

0:52

to bring I I bring a lot of coaching

0:54

soccer analogies into my my conversation

0:58

and it's nice when we can bring our our

1:00

our our personal ambitions and and and

1:03

practices into our our work and our our

1:06

perspectives. So

1:08

true. It's been uh I went kind of deep

1:11

on the metaphor of weaving because uh I'

1:14

I've always been a community weaver and

1:16

then once I um became a fiber weaver and

1:20

if you're if you do systems thinking in

1:22

any way and you look at a loom that is

1:25

all set up with the complexities and the

1:28

threads and the hedles and the way that

1:30

it's all and and once I saw systems I

1:33

couldn't unsee systems and and it's

1:36

really proven um the perfect metaphor

1:40

for how we look at what we're doing and

1:44

how to create change and move forward to

1:49

make things different.

1:50

Yeah, I I I love that connection between

1:53

systems thinking and and and weaving. I

1:56

I probably casually overuse the phrase

1:59

pull on a thread. Um but it is all it is

2:02

all connected. It is all interconnected.

2:05

Um so let's just start with the the the

2:07

the first part of that which is the

2:10

unweaving. Um you know obviously as an

2:13

actual weaver we don't spend a lot of

2:15

time doing that but but uh yeah we

2:18

unless there's an unless there's a

2:19

problem to solve right. Um so so what is

2:23

what does unweaving look like um you

2:27

know for for someone in an organization

2:29

looking at and and facing a challenge?

2:32

Well, the unweaving um I did the book is

2:35

called reweaving what matters and I did

2:37

start with we are going to reweave and I

2:40

had my practice in place until I was

2:43

physically weaving on a loom made a

2:45

mistake had to go back and then had this

2:48

awareness of this is this is where the

2:51

foundation

2:52

needs to be addressed. We I think the

2:55

unweaving is where we miss it in

2:57

organizations. We tend to build on

3:00

foundations that aren't solid. we uh

3:02

live within systems that were created

3:05

10, 20, 70 years ago that don't match

3:08

the world as it looks right now. So

3:11

unweaving is where I took a step back as

3:15

I was writing the book and created this

3:17

whole phase that's com um comprised of

3:20

three steps which is notice, clarify,

3:24

and act. And the notice phase is a

3:28

difficult place often for people to

3:29

start because it feels passive. It feels

3:32

like, you know, we need to get in there

3:33

and do something. And I I say if like

3:35

systems change was easy, somebody would

3:37

have done it by now. It's not. And the

3:40

notice phase allows us to look where

3:43

we're at. Um how are communications

3:46

flowing? Are you spending your money in

3:48

ways that align with your mission? are

3:51

who has power and influence that may not

3:54

be reflective by title and and just

3:58

noticing. And so I have created

4:01

worksheets that align with this book and

4:04

there's over 300 pages of them, but I'm

4:07

making them free on the website because

4:10

I want people to be able to integrate

4:12

and do the work. So the notice just has

4:15

a lot of where are you now? um what's

4:18

working, what isn't working. And then

4:20

the clarify step gets into understanding

4:24

what you see. Um it it aligns very much

4:28

also with what so what now what. So when

4:30

you look at the clarify, what have you

4:33

just noticed? Um what's the impact of

4:37

what you're seeing? And then the act is

4:40

very small deliberate actions where you

4:43

take steps over 30 days. You try

4:47

something, you see what works. If it

4:50

works or doesn't work, you learn from

4:52

that. And then pretty soon, like the

4:55

meeting that everybody's been having for

4:57

um years where you sit around the table

4:59

for two hours and people report out on

5:03

what they're doing and then everyone

5:04

leaves. Um the meetings that aren't a

5:07

good use of time all of a sudden turns

5:09

into a 15minute huddle. You find out

5:11

with that experiment, oh, this is

5:13

allowing people to ask for what they

5:15

need. And then pretty soon new people

5:17

come in. It's the way it's always been

5:19

done. And that change begins to happen.

5:23

And and the changes that need to happen

5:26

can occur in different departments as

5:28

people are doing experiments

5:31

that help to foster

5:33

those actions that end up being

5:36

sustainable parts and create the room to

5:40

get to the reweaving part.

5:42

Yeah. So the the notice phase just

5:46

starting there is is that

5:49

is is that sort of an always on element

5:52

or is that sort of a step back uh you

5:55

know phase that you enter sort of this

5:57

reflective moment where you're you're

6:00

paying attention differently and if and

6:02

if it's the latter what what really

6:03

should trigger that need to to to go

6:06

into notice phase

6:08

I feel like it's the former where it

6:11

becomes how you see things how you

6:13

operate. Um for many years ago when

6:17

people created word of the year um

6:19

notice was my word and and it is deeply

6:23

how I see everything. It's allowed me to

6:26

you become more attuned to what is

6:28

needed. You see things in a different

6:30

way and and I'm very clear that systems

6:34

change and this process doesn't happen

6:37

in three months. It doesn't. It is a

6:40

continual practice where when people

6:43

notice um how communication is flowing.

6:47

I noticed it gets blocked when we get to

6:49

this point and sometimes communication

6:51

can take eight weeks to get out because

6:53

they're waiting for approval. You you

6:55

notice and it allows you to

6:58

always kind of be on and take more

7:01

action. And until it becomes that

7:04

practice

7:05

um you get to the place where you have

7:09

discomfort change needs to happen and

7:12

then you can know that you need to

7:14

return there. Okay, we need to take

7:16

inventory. We need to see how things are

7:19

and are not working and and it will be

7:22

something you can deliberately return to

7:25

but ideally it becomes a way of seeing

7:27

and thinking.

7:28

Yeah. Um and and that that's a habit

7:32

that can build up with practice, right?

7:34

So it it kind of requires that uh uh

7:37

those repetitions and that that sort of

7:39

uh constant exercise. Um tying that to

7:43

the systems dynamics uh and the

7:45

interconnectedness,

7:48

you know, as you're as you're in the the

7:50

notice and and I think this is probably

7:51

more even around clarify

7:55

because everything's connected, you can

7:57

go on forever, right? And so so h how

8:00

how uh you know I can stay inside my

8:03

department and and say we're going to

8:06

look there. I can go you know one step

8:09

beyond I can look beyond our whole

8:10

organization to the things influencing

8:12

it. How uh how expansive uh do you need

8:17

to be and how do you how do you know

8:19

what's too far and what's not enough?

8:22

It's it's kind of designated by where

8:24

the change you see needs to happen. The

8:26

notice piece starts like with a timeline

8:28

of where you've been and and often it's

8:31

understanding primarily the the first

8:34

rounds are what's been handed down to

8:36

you. What policies and procedures don't

8:38

fit the world right now? What what

8:41

structures have existed for 68 years

8:45

that that don't fit anymore? And once

8:47

some of the fundamental and I call these

8:49

the warp threads um they are the

8:52

foundation of a loom. They are the

8:55

structural pieces of an organization.

8:58

Once you've done the more intense

9:02

examination of your policies and

9:05

procedures, of your mission and vision,

9:07

of your um hierarchical structures and

9:10

your positions. A lot of positions when

9:12

I've gone into workplaces are positions

9:14

that have been in place for 20 years and

9:17

those positions don't fit where we are

9:19

right now. So where they may be looking

9:22

is what jobs do we have and what jobs do

9:25

we need? And once you do that work then

9:29

then the notice phase the clarify

9:32

becomes more of a checkpoint get your

9:35

oil changed I'm at that mileage place

9:38

rather than the deep work that is

9:41

assessing where are you now and what

9:44

have you just inherited and continued to

9:46

do. um that statement of well that's the

9:49

way we've always done it and I tend to

9:51

ask people what about the way you've

9:53

always done it is working and it usually

9:56

kind of surprises them and many times

9:58

they don't know and and when you take

10:01

when you take a look at that it gives

10:03

you the chance to change those

10:06

foundational threads so that when you

10:09

get to the point of creating the vision

10:13

for where you want to get you're

10:14

building it on a solid foundation that's

10:17

gotten rid of those, like you say,

10:19

pulling the threads, the ones that no

10:22

longer serve your organization, your

10:24

mindset, or the world today. And and a

10:27

lot of this came to me when people would

10:29

get to the point of um I need I want to

10:32

go back to normal. And after the

10:34

pandemic, it was like and and it's like,

10:36

was that normal? And and once you start

10:39

asking those questions, uh it's it's

10:42

like, well, it wasn't normal. Can we

10:43

look at where you're at today and then

10:45

get a realistic picture of where you

10:47

want to go? So that is unweaving.

10:50

Yeah. Excellent. Um, so let's uh let's

10:55

shift then into the the the the

10:57

reweaving part, right? Which is kind of

10:59

where your your your book centered from

11:02

a from a title standpoint, right? Re

11:04

reweaving what matters. Um, so at some

11:08

level I could say, hey, you're going to

11:10

notice, you're going to clarify, you're

11:11

going to action. Just keep doing that.

11:13

What does what does where does reweaving

11:16

take us that that the unweaving doesn't?

11:19

And the the unweaving makes the space.

11:21

If you're looking at a loom, you've

11:23

you've now got the space cleared. You

11:26

are ready. Your foundational warp

11:28

threads are strong and and you're ready

11:31

to move forward. So now you have this

11:33

space when you um so many people that

11:36

come in with let's create a strategic

11:38

plan. Let's redo our mission and vision.

11:40

Let's without without clearing that

11:43

space without doing that. So the phases

11:46

the the phase of reweaving has the three

11:49

steps as well of envision structure

11:53

weave and that envision part allows

11:56

people it it starts to ask okay now now

12:00

we see where we're at. What is possible?

12:03

where what what can we do with these

12:05

assets with these resources with this

12:08

strong foundation to deliver services in

12:11

the way that we want to deliver

12:13

services. So the envision is when you

12:17

start to explore that possibility and

12:21

and decide what you want to accomplish.

12:25

the structure. Nothing can be

12:27

accomplished without structure. And and

12:30

so the structure piece goes in to allow

12:33

you to decide how are we going to do it?

12:36

What is a timeline to do that? What does

12:38

the service delivery look like? Do we

12:40

have the right positions? And did we

12:43

take care of that to be ready to

12:46

implement what we are striving to do to

12:49

make our workplace better? And then the

12:51

last part is the weave of where you are

12:55

actually pulling the people together,

12:57

the systems together, and your programs

12:59

together to deliver what it is you're

13:01

seeking to um do.

13:04

Yeah. Well, I'll before I ask a question

13:07

about Envision, I I I have to say I love

13:10

I love analogies. I use them very

13:12

casually and and repeatedly, and I I

13:15

tend to sometimes overstretch them, uh

13:17

take them into places that they weren't

13:19

meant to go. But I I really appreciate

13:21

how thoroughly you've made the weaving

13:24

the the the the details of weaving

13:26

practices uh really work with uh with

13:29

the model from yeah the unweaving makes

13:31

the space to then do the reweaving. I I

13:34

love I love how that's all works elegant

13:37

elegantly. Um the envision is you know

13:41

how much is this uh uh incremental

13:44

versus sort of vision and ideal state

13:47

and what does what does you know perfect

13:50

look like what does good look like.

13:52

The envision

13:55

um allows you to think big and and there

13:59

are are times when um thinking big isn't

14:04

appropriate. It it's nonsensical. it

14:07

doesn't, you know, like, well, let's not

14:09

dream that big if we don't have the

14:11

capacity to be able to get there. But,

14:14

but being able to look at where you want

14:18

to go, I'm also so um committed to

14:21

including when I go into workplaces, I

14:24

usually start at the bottom. I start

14:26

with the individuals that um actually

14:30

work with the clients, deliver the

14:32

services, the the first level managers

14:35

that may be the middle managers and and

14:38

coming in and seeing they they see what

14:41

is needed now, what we need to do and

14:43

what we need to um envision in a much

14:47

different way than the people three

14:48

levels up from them supervising them

14:50

seeing them. And so I'll use uh World

14:54

Cafe tools. I'll use a lot of different

14:56

ways to bring people together to allow

14:58

yourself to think big and then be able

15:01

to decide with what we have what has the

15:04

greatest impact and requires the least

15:08

skills to be able to accomplish this

15:12

vision and serve in the way that we want

15:14

to. So I'm not sure if that answered

15:16

your question.

15:17

Yeah. Yeah. Um just as you got into that

15:21

you started talking about who's

15:22

involved. So let me let me ask a little

15:25

more about that because there's always

15:28

the you know I involve more people I get

15:31

more alignment I may get more cognitive

15:33

diversity and more creativity but I also

15:36

can get you know with fewer people I can

15:39

get sort of speed uh some precision and

15:42

if I have the right skills I might get

15:44

even you know bolder thinking. So, how

15:46

how uh are are how do you involve

15:50

different people throughout this this

15:52

multi-phase approach? Um and and or is

15:56

it situation by situation?

15:59

It is situation by situation. I just did

16:01

a uh work in our county to define the

16:06

gaps of u mental health service delivery

16:09

for youth.

16:10

So, I did focus groups. I did um

16:14

one-on-one interviews. I went into fire,

16:17

library, schools. Um I I went into all

16:20

the sectors but but between and then I

16:23

had a community gathering that used that

16:25

world cafe format and so there were like

16:28

127 interviews. It it was a lot of data

16:33

but that broadbased

16:35

uh perspective

16:37

allows um everybody's at capacity right

16:41

now. They're exhausted. They're

16:43

overwhelmed. you can't see what's

16:46

outside your own realm. And and

16:49

oftentimes when we look up from our

16:51

where we need to do to accomplish what

16:54

we're trying to accomplish, we look up

16:56

and it's overwhelming and we just want

16:58

to put our heads down and keep going.

17:01

and and when you take the time to listen

17:05

to people, if I'm working with an

17:06

organization, I talk to every board

17:08

member and and it's just that simple.

17:12

Um, hearing all the voices and then

17:15

taking those perspectives and using them

17:19

to allow everybody to see what the

17:22

options are for what is needed now,

17:25

right? What are some people's visions?

17:27

And and sometimes when you're um at when

17:32

you have all the [snorts] responsibility

17:34

and none of the authority, you see

17:36

things in a way that isn't really

17:38

possible to implement. But then that's a

17:42

different communication flow because

17:44

they need to understand why why why

17:47

can't we do that?

17:48

And and then a different thing becomes

17:51

clear that usually isn't costbased to

17:54

solve. It's just communicationbased.

17:57

Yeah. Yeah. I uh and and you you

18:00

mentioned how people are, you know,

18:02

they're busy, they're overwhelmed. Um

18:04

sort of any improvement efforts um

18:08

especially ones that that look like they

18:10

might take a little while feel like

18:12

extra work. Um and and that's one of the

18:16

compelling reasons to just, you know,

18:18

try something, right? Throw solutions at

18:20

it and be reactive. What what do you

18:23

think is the difference between uh an

18:26

organization or just a leader uh kind of

18:31

staying down the path of just you know

18:33

react and try to improve versus taking

18:36

the time to do this work in a in a

18:39

thoughtful meaning meaningful open way?

18:42

What what gets somebody there? I I think

18:45

when you do the react and try to

18:47

improve, you end up um burning your

18:51

trust with those that um look up to you

18:55

and are hoping that you have the

18:56

solutions and and we we have created a

19:01

lot of um we one word a lot of people

19:04

that reviewed the book came back and

19:06

said this is about mattering. You're

19:08

creating cultures of mattering instead

19:10

of cultures of belonging. And the

19:12

difference belonging is a word that was

19:14

used used and and tends to I I think

19:18

it's important that everyone knows they

19:20

have a place but mattering is seeing

19:22

each individual for what they bring and

19:25

and that they have the capacity to make

19:27

a difference simply for the uniqueness

19:29

of them and and when when we get

19:33

reactive and and we come to the table

19:36

and it takes the leader a lot of time to

19:38

get the energy again to say we're going

19:40

to try something new and and and

19:43

everybody's like, "Oh my gosh, here they

19:45

go again." And and then the trust is

19:48

broken. Well, well, if you're doing

19:51

these incremental actions, going back to

19:53

the unweaving side, you get some chance

19:56

to build some momentum. Okay? You're in

19:58

charge with something that you see in

20:00

your department that could have an

20:02

impact. Try this. See what works. See

20:05

what doesn't work. do that learn piece

20:08

to where you're you're learning from

20:10

what you're trying and seeing if it does

20:12

work and then and then a change happens.

20:15

So those that are exhausted as well um

20:20

are better able to say, "Oh, look,

20:22

they're they're taking their time. This

20:24

actually could be what we need. I'm

20:27

willing to follow them and try this

20:30

again."

20:31

Yeah. And and I think that momentum is

20:34

key, but in a world where we want

20:36

everything now, it's it's also difficult

20:39

to be the leader and to suggest

20:41

something that

20:43

isn't that um genie in a box.

20:46

Yeah.

20:47

Yeah.

20:47

And just a couple quick questions before

20:50

we wrap up is, you know, to that point

20:52

around the role of the leader, um you

20:55

know, this is a a process. This is a a

20:59

an exercise that that people go through.

21:03

What what would be the most you know

21:05

most important observable behavior that

21:07

a leader has to exhibit to ensure this

21:10

process actually produces the results

21:12

that are desired.

21:14

The ability to listen

21:16

and the ability to go back to that

21:20

notice. you're noticing what's working,

21:21

but if you're if you're if you're doing

21:24

something and it's not working,

21:27

um, name it. Name, well, this isn't

21:30

going, we should do this. And, and I

21:33

think that ability to acknowledge what

21:35

isn't working as well as what is is

21:38

often missing because people don't want

21:40

to look like they might not know

21:42

everything.

21:43

Yeah.

21:44

Yeah. And then last question, besides,

21:47

you know, besides buying your book, um,

21:49

you reweaving what matters, what what

21:53

can somebody do to get started? What's

21:54

the sort of first step somebody uses to

21:57

to to move in this direction?

22:00

Uh, it's I'm going to sound like a

22:02

broken record, but I'm going to go back

22:03

to that notice. Just just take some time

22:06

with that within your workplace. And um

22:10

if if you can if you want to download

22:12

the worksheets from the website or if

22:14

you just simply want to start to see

22:18

where where are things getting stuck,

22:20

where where could one small change make

22:22

a difference? What is needed now? And

22:25

that notice doesn't cost you time. You

22:28

don't need permission from your manager

22:30

to be able to notice what is needed. and

22:33

and it allows everybody to take part in

22:37

being the solution and starting to

22:40

figure out how they can create the

22:44

workplace. And I real quick want to add

22:46

that when you're noticing um it's

22:48

important to also look at yourself and

22:51

and I do have worksheets for personal

22:53

and community as well because if you

22:55

have trouble with boundaries at home,

22:58

you probably have trouble with

22:59

boundaries in the workplace and you

23:01

probably have trouble with boundaries in

23:03

community. So just notice.

23:06

Very good. Well, I appreciate you

23:08

sharing. Um it sounds like you uh you

23:11

enjoyed the process of writing the book.

23:13

I hope uh I hope you continue uh to

23:16

enjoy the process of sharing the book

23:18

with folks and I wish you all the

23:21

success.

23:22

Thank you so much Jamie. Thanks for

23:23

having me.